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jonbenetramseymurder

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please feel free to discuss
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marplemiss

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  1. This is fascinating detective work. I wasn't aware of Spade's deleting all those posts. Have you tried using the Wayback Machine to see if it retains a copy of the site before Spade deleted those posts? It won't answer the question of why they were deleted, but may at least enlighten you about content.

  2. I'm puzzled why you think Archuletta's account is credible in all its particlars. The issue is not whether she believes what she's saying: I don't doubt her sincerity, but that is not dispositive of its truth value. As you yourself say: ""What bothered me immensely – it sounded like she’s said “OK so we’ve called the police, now what?” And that disturbed me, so I remained on the phone trying to hear what was being said and it sounded like there were two voices in the room, maybe three different ones. . I had a feeling about this, to me it seemed rehearsed . . .

  • Your rection: "I see no reason to doubt what Kimberly says she heard is what did actually happen, which is that there were at least two voices that spoke after Patsy stopped talking to her and those voices were picked up on the recording of the 911 call."

  • My reaction: I take "it sounded like she’s said “OK so we’ve called the police, now what?”" literally. That is, it doesn't sound to me as if Archuletta is trying to paraphrase what Patsy says or give us the "gist" of it. She's reporting the words she remembers hearing. But of course, there is NO version of the enhanced call in which Aerospace engineers or anyone else recovered words that even approximate what Kim claims to have heard. Which in my book simply confirms unreliability of eyewitness testimony etc.

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marplemiss

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Reply with quote  #3 
Your theory about the voices not being John and Burke's is interesting, but is far more complicated and sinister than the Occam's razor alternative: that it was simply bleed-through from a recycled tape (you appear to reject that ONLY because you find Kim so credible, yet IMHO we've established that she actually is NOT so reliable after all). A couple of problems:
  • You theory requires that PR flat-out lied about what happened. There's no way in hell she wouldn't have remembered a separate cell phone call that morning. What possible motive would there be for covering this up?
  • Your theory requires an individual so powerful that they could quash the re-airing of the tape within the space of 3 hours. Honestly I don't picture such individuals watching trash like Geraldo, although arguably he could have gotten wind that tape was going to air and tuned in for that reason. But if that's true, then how come said individual couldn't have pre-empted the first airing etc.? So leaves us with a guy who regularly watches Geraldo, got caught by surprise by what he saw and placed an immediate urgent call to desist from re-airing that tape.
  • No one can seem to agree on what words were said, much less who said them. It defies credibility to think anyone hearing the enhanced tape would say "OMG, that's obviously Mr. BIG!" The interpreted contents of the tape already had been reported in National Enquirer the day previously (this I presume is what instigated Geraldo to jump on the story) and subsequently got reported/repeated all over the place. None of those purported words "point a finger" at anyone, so it's really hard to believe that HEARING the same words on an enhanced tape suddenly would reveal who Patsy was actually talking to.
  • I don't know how far out you've played your theory, but if Ramseys were aware of Mr. Big and actually complicit in his killing of JBR (that would be consistent with the nature of GJ indictments issued), then why in the world would they call in the police? What do they gain from a staged kidnapping that they could not have achieved by simply calling the cops to say they'd found her killed in the basement etc.? And if your theory requires either Ramsey to have written the RN, I just don't buy that for all the reasons Smit rejected. Especially if their own child was the victim, parents would have been way too freaked out to have written a note as logical and coherent and nearly error-free as the one actually written etc.
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jonbenetramseymurder

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Reply with quote  #4 

Thanks for taking the time to look at this marplemiss and for your detailed and considered analysis.

1. No, I haven't tried using the Wayback Machine, sounds like a great idea, thanks

2. I am not believing Kimberly just because she sounds so sincere. I believe her because her testimony fits with the other evidence regarding the Geraldo Show August 1998 playing of the voices. That was a highly significant event IMO - from the evidence I have gathered, the way I see it - the show aired at prime time, probably 8:30pm and played the end of the tape enhanced by Aerospace Incorporated with the voices made audible. Then there was a later airing of Geraldo that night with the Aerospace tape enhancement omitted. How does one explain that? Of course all the RDIers blamed the 'Ramsey team' but that explanation makes no sense.

3. All I can say is Occam's razor does not ALWAYS have to be applicable. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that an alternative, more complicated explanation is appropriate here.

4. Yes, my theory requires that PR flat-out lied about what happened. I believe that to be the case. THIS IN NO WAY MEANS THAT I BELIEVE PATSY WAS INVOLVED IN THE MURDER. What it means is that I think that poor Patsy, after having done something rather foolish, was put in a position where she was forced to help in the cover up of the murder. This is why my position is really neither IDI nor RDI but part way between I suppose.

5. My theory requires that there was an entire cabal of pedophiles, at least one of whom had that power.

6. As far as agreeing on the words, I think Aerospace's version is probably that most accurate, if anyone has the most state of the art equipment, it would be them.

7. your next point is very valid. So how do I explain his acting to have the tape removed instead of just letting it pass and hope that no-one noticed anything odd? Maybe he got a real shock when he heard the voices on Geraldo, he recognised his own voice and remembered the call he had made to Patsy's cell phone early that morning but up until this episode of Geraldo Show hadn't realised that he had made the call right in the middle of Patsy's 911 call? He might have simply panicked. I don't know but this is my guess. 

8. Another very valid point. My theory is that John is a complete innocent in all of this, that it was his decision to call the police that morning and patsy simply obeyed him. My theory is that while Patsy had been forced to become complicit in the coverup, she had also been forced to keep this and the foolish thing she had done from John because if he ever found out about either she would lose both him and Burke, which was all she had left after losing her beloved daughter. I don't think the Ramseys staged the kidnapping, I think the pedophiles with the help of the guy who was phoning Patsy did. I think Patsy wrote the note, or at least the second part of it but only because she was forced or rather 'blackmailed' into it

9. Anyway, thanks very much for posting links to my website on your Case Encyclopedia

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marplemiss

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Reply with quote  #5 
Your theory seems to depend heavily on the claim that the enhance tape was aired on Geraldo show since if this were true, there's a lot of 'splainin' to do about how Mr. Big managed both to get that portion deleted from all subsequent airings of the show, from the DVD version AND from the written transcripts.

I'd encourage you to read Case Encyclopedia more carefully on this issue.
First, why do you accept everything Spade says as 100% truthful, especially in light of his subsequent decision to scrub all his posts and be silent forever after that on this issue?

As just one illustration, consider this: "Internet poster koldkase says she does not watch Geraldo's daytime show, including the one in which the mock trial was done, but she is certain she heard the enhanced tape, hence it must have been on the nighttime show." According to your very careful reconstruction of events, koldkase is dead wrong. She could not possibly have heard the enhanced tape on the later show because Mr. Big got it scrubbed. YET koldkase is 100% positive she heard the tape (along with the list of others you provided). 

This gets back to the reliability of eyewitness testimony. You have a handful of highly motivated posters who claim they literally heard the tape (highly motivated meaning they are 100% convinced of Ramsey guilt and the enhanced tape--assuming the voices truly can be heard as clearly as they claim--is incontrovertible evidence Ramseys lied). Against that, you have a moutain of evidence that it didn't happen, i.e., many other posters AND STEVE THOMAS who deny it happen, along with a) the official show transcript showing no such thing happened; b) the DVD version including no such segment; and c) zero contemporary accounts from newspapers or other print media that Rivera had actually aired this bombshell material. 

Occam's razor says a handful of posters either lied or unintentionally mistaken in their recollections (they WANTED it to be true, so their memories allowed it to be so etc.). To avert this pretty straightforward conclusion, you have imagined a Mr. Big so extraordinarily powerful that he can shut down NBC from airing content. 

So go back to Spade. If Spade were truthful about all his previous claims about the enhanced tape being aired and scrubbed and transcripts redacted etc., what would motivate him to pull all those posts? Could it possibly be guilt over having lied?  Your claim is that it's really Mr. Big's influence behind the scenes, but that scenario implies that Spade knows what actually happened (a pedophile ring) and by implication so do Tricia Griffith, River and others in the close-knit ring of posters insistent on Ramsey guilt. If so, why in the world do these posters keep beating the drum for John and Patsy's heads? That would seem pretty unconscionable: they know that a pedophile ring did the deed, coerced Patsy into writing RN and yet they want Ramseys jailed for this?

Moreover, how did Mr. Big not shut down Singular's book in 1999 that was ALL ABOUT A PEDOPHILE RING? That book and the possibility that it might lead investigators to did into that allegation would seem far more of a threat to Mr. Big and colleagues than a murky-sounding enhanced tape which would have virtually zero probative value in pointing the finger at Mr. Big.
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jonbenetramseymurder

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Reply with quote  #6 

OK, a lot of points for me to address:

 You stated – “Your theory seems to depend heavily on the claim that the enhance tape was aired on Geraldo”

 My reply – No I don’t believe this is true at all. The way I see it is that my theory depends most heavily on the compelling evidence that the 911 voices were redacted from the Aerospace enhanced version and that this redaction was carried out by CD Boulder Police before handing it over to the DA’s office in 2003. All the other evidence falls into place and starts to make sense once you accept that as fact.

 You stated – “there's a lot of 'splainin' to do about how Mr. Big managed both to get that portion deleted from all subsequent airings of the show, from the DVD version AND from the written transcripts.”

 My reply – I don’t agree, all I am claiming Mr Big managed to do was to organize with his pedophile connections to get CNBC pull the recording from the show and then have the DVD and transcript made from the later showing. I don't think that's a big stretch to ask people to believe that was possible Mr Big had a pedophile contact at CNBC who had a personal interest in agreeing to do this.

 You stated – “I'd encourage you to read Case Encyclopedia more carefully on this issue.”

 My reply – Truly, I have read everything there is to read on the internet. I’m not saying I have remembered everything, but I have read and considered it all. I can't find anything in Case Encyclopedia that is inconsistent with what I am saying

 Your question - “First, why do you accept everything Spade says as 100% truthful, especially in light of his subsequent decision to scrub all his posts and be silent forever after that on this issue?”

 My reply - Mostly I assume people are telling the truth as I think they are, at least the truth as they see it. Nothing Spade says is in conflict with anything else other posters have said or anything else I have read, so I don’t have any reason for not believing him. I have also read other posts of Spade's where he reveals some personal information and he seems to be genuine and dedicated enough to do some proper research instead of indulging in dumb gossip like so many posters. He is of course RDI and he therefore believed the voices were those of John and Burke and was trying to prove that the voices were, in fact there. To me the best explanation for what my research has revealed about Spade’s involvement in the 911 call analysis, is to theorize that he was forced to delete his posts about redactions because Mr Big et al began threatening him as they wanted everything about those voices suppressed after finding out the truth about them during the August 1998 Geraldo Show.

 You stated – "Internet poster koldkase says she does not watch Geraldo's daytime show, including the one in which the mock trial was done, but she is certain she heard the enhanced tape, hence it must have been on the nighttime show. According to your very careful reconstruction of events, koldkase is dead wrong.”

 My reply - When koldcase said she was certain she heard the enhanced tape, she was referring to the prime time nighttime version of the Geraldo Show when the tape was played, not the repeat nighttime playing later in the evening when the tape had been pulled. At least that is the way I understood her posts so IMO her statements are consistent with my reconstruction of events. From extra reading of what other posters have written, I think the enhanced tape was likely also aired on Geraldo’s morning show.

 You stated – “This gets back to the reliability of eyewitness testimony. You have a handful of highly motivated posters who claim they literally heard the tape (highly motivated meaning they are 100% convinced of Ramsey guilt and the enhanced tape--assuming the voices truly can be heard as clearly as they claim--is incontrovertible evidence Ramseys lied).”

 My reply – This is the heart of what I am saying about all these RDI posters. Not all of them agreed that the voices could be heard. There were plenty of RDIers who would have been just as eager to hear the voices on the tape who said they had listened to the show and said they did NOT hear the voices. If one lot of RDIers were adamantly saying there were no voices while another lot of RDIers were saying there were, doesn't that kind of validate what the 'hearers' were claiming? The different experiences of two groups of RDIers, all of whom I am saying were telling the truth, kind of lends credence to the idea that the voices were played during the prime time showing of Geraldo and not the repeat showing and that the RDI 'hearers' had watched the first edition of the show and the RDI 'non hearers' had watched the second.
 

 You stated – “AND STEVE THOMAS who deny it happen,” 

 My reply – Since Steve Thomas' comments on this topic were so vague they could be interpreted a number of ways. I kind of suspect Thomas was the one who leaked to the journalists about the Aerospace enhancement and it was those journalists who went to Aerospace and got their recording. Although he included the information about the voices at the end of the tape in his book, I got the impression that Thomas didn't want to talk about the playing of the voices on Geraldo when asked about them in that online chat show he did in November 2000. So in my opinion after Geraldo he had been made well aware of the fact that he had eff-ed up in leaking to the journalists about the Aerospace enhancement but was never told exactly why. I also get the impression that after his book publication he was told not to talk about it again, hence his avoidance answer, so untypical of him during the 2000 chat show.
 

 You stated – “c) zero contemporary accounts from newspapers or other print media that Rivera had actually aired this bombshell material.”

 My reply – As far as there being no contemporary news accounts of the show – isn’t Geraldo a trashy show and isn’t it likely that mainstream news reporters weren’t watching anyway? It did seem to me that the news reporters mostly seemed to get their news from official sources and that true investigative journalists were pretty thin on the ground in Boulder at the time of the murder.

 Besides, what you say about no other news source picking it up isn’t exactly true. If you go read this 2008 thread at Websleuths:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?75425-quot-Geraldo-quot-Show-W-Enhanced-Ramsey-911-Tape

you will see there are indications that it WAS picked up by at least one tabloid-type television news program, either ‘Inside Edition’, ‘Hard Copy’, ‘A Current Affair’ or ‘American Journal’ (read comments by posters drew, lannie, RiverRat, Twitch, Driver)

 You stated – Your claim is that it's really Mr. Big's influence behind the scenes, but that scenario implies that Spade knows what actually happened (a pedophile ring) and by implication so do Tricia Griffith, River and others in the close-knit ring of posters insistent on Ramsey guilt.

 My reply – Spade might have come to know something after being threated, I agree. But he hasn’t posted since so we don’t know just what he does know now. As for Tricia Griffith, what would be wrong with my belief that she is being played for a sucker by Mr Big?

 Your question – “how did Mr. Big not shut down Singular's book in 1999 that was ALL ABOUT A PEDOPHILE RING?”

 My reply – My guess would be that the publication of Singular's book in 1999 was a complete surprise to Mr Big and he didn’t have a chance to stop it. Also we don’t know what threats Singular has been subjected to since but there are indications that they WERE made. 

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